Sue, thanks for all that help. Since reading your post I've been trying to find a daughter for Herbert & Eleanor Kinvig after 1911 & before Herbert was killed in 1918. I have a photo on which my mother has written Nelly Kinvig 1939. If Eleanor (Nelly) was born in 1884 she must be 55 which could fit the older of the 2 women. The other looks around 25-28 & there is also a small boy about 3 years old. I would love to know if this is Herbert's wife, dau & grandson but as yet haven't found a birth even in manxmbd so the 3 in the photo remain a mystery.