[from the Medical Aid and Poor Relief Commission Report - 1879]

Evidence Ninth Day

Ninth Day, THURSDAY, November 21, 1878,

PEEL AND GERMAN.

Mr R. J. Moore.

Present — S. Harris, Esq., High Bailiff of Douglas (chairman); U.Corbett, Esq ; R. J. Moore, Esq., H.K., High Bailiff of Peel; J. M Jeffcott, Esq., H.K., High Bailiff of Castletown A. Dumbell, Esq., High Bailiff of Ramsey ; the Rev. B. P. Clarke, Vicar of Marown; the Rev. E. W. Kissack, Vicar of Rushen ; and the Rev. Geo. Paton, incumbent of St. Paul's, Ramsey.

Mr R. J. Moore, High Bailiff of Peel, examined :

To the Chairman : I may state that, at a meeting of the Vicar and Wardens and myself, it was arranged, as the relations between the town of Peel and the parish of Kirk German (in which the town is situated), are somewhat peculiar, that, as a preliminary step, I should make a statement of the facts concerning the various charities of the parish and town. It was thought that, if I did this, it would materially assist the Commission in an examination of the Vicar and Wardens afterwards.

I have, therefore, prepared a few facts which I shall place in evidence before you. In the first place I may explain that, according to the Ordnance survey of 1869, the area of the parish, including the town, is 11,678.560 acres. According to the same authority, the area of the town is 34.676 acres. That was in 1869. Since that period, however, the boundaries of the town have been increased. The area of the parish, exclusive of the town, is 11,643.884 acres. Then, as to the population, according to the census of 1871, the population of the parish was 1,762, and of the town 3,496: making a total of 5,258 for the town and parish.

The population, I have no hesitation in saying, has largely increased since that time ; but in the absence of a census since then we have no positive evidence on the point.

Then, as to the valuation, According to the valuation of the Island made for the purposes of the Lunatic Asylum, that of the parish is £11,353 9s, and of the town £3,537 19s; making the total valuation of the town and parish, £14,891 8s 6d. And now, a few particulars as to the parish.

With respect to the appointment of wardens, and the attendance by them on the poor, the custom is rather peculiar. It has been handed down for a long time, and can be traced back with certainty for upwards of a century. Every Easter Monday six wardens are elected. Two of these are for the town, and are called "the Town Wardens ;" and the other four, who represent the parish, are called "The Country Wardens." "These four wardens are appointed to four well-defined districts, or quarters of the parish. These are—the "Abbey Quarter," which contains 11 quarterlands; the " Particles," containing 13¼ quarterlands; the "Knebe" (now known as "Greeba"), containing 13½ quarter lands; and "Ballakaighen Quarter," containing 10½ quarterlands: so that there is a total of 48¼ quarterlands in the four quarters of the parish. The town of Peel is calculated, as a basis for valuation, as equal to 76 quarterlands ; making a total of 124¼ quarterlands in the parish and town. That is to say that, for the purposes of parochial assessment, we in the town pay for 76 quarterlands, as against the 48¼ quarterlands of the country. The town, therefore, pays nearly two-thirds of the parochial assessment.

To Mr Corbett; This is a purely conventional arrangement, which has been carried out for generations with regard to the care of the poor and the distribution of the poor's money and of the various charities, each country warden is supposed to attend to the wants and requirements of the poor within his district or quarter of the parish, and he does so without the interference of, or co-operation with, the others, That arrangement has been carried out for very many years, and appears to work fairly well. The warden usually resides in the quarter he represents, and he sees to the poor in his district during his year of office.

To the Rev. B. P. Clarke : Each warden distributes the amount of relief he thinks it necessary to give, and he receives the money from the poor funds. In all these matters considerable discretion is left in the hands of the vicar and the individual warden, The number of poor in the parish is so small, that, when the parish is divided, each warden has very little to attend to. The two town wardens attend to the poor in the town exclusively.

To Mr Corbett : Practically each warden has to take care of his own district only, and it is left entirely to him. Each individual warden has to see to the poor of his own quarter ; and practically he is the relieving officer in his district. The town wardens attend to the poor of the town, keep the parish books; and, in fact, in conjunction with the vicar, have the main charge and management of all parochial matters. With regard to bequests for the poor, several legacies have been left to the poor of the parish of German; others to the poor of the town of Peel ; and others, again, to the poor of both the town and parish, the custom with us has always been, that where any legacies are left to the "poor of the parish of German," the interest of those legacies is handed over to the country wardens for the poor of the parish only, excluding the poor of the town from all benefit in it, although the town of Peel, legally speaking, would haye a right to participate, and no doubt would be allowed to do so if the demand was made. This arrangement has gone on for a great number of years, having in fact been handed down for generations. When, on the other hand, legacies are left to the town alone, it is appropriated for the use of the poor of the town only ; and when it is left to the poor of the town and country, it is divided between both.

To the Rev. H. S. Gill : In a word the arrangement is very like that which prevails in Malew and Castletown.

To Mr Corbett : You are right. As nearly as possible the town, for the purposes of parochial assessment, is valued at two-thirds, and the country at one-third ; and practically the town pays two-thirds and the country one-third of the cess. The parish does not participate in any shape or way in any legacies left for the poor of the town only. I now produce a list of the legacies bequeathed to the parish, commencing so far back as the year 1693. 'That was a somewhat peculiar legacy. It was the sum of £10 Manx, or £8 11s 54d British, left by Thomas Woods, "to be divided between the parish of German and Patrick and the town of Peel." At that time Patrick was not an independent parish, It had no parish church, and it and the parish of German were under the charge of one vicar, but still the testator left one-third of the bequest to it, and the other two-thirds to Peel and German. This money is invested in Cooper's Mill, the particulars of which I will give further on.

The next legacy is that of Richard Radcliff, who in the year 1740 left £40 to the town of Peel. This sum is equal to £34 5d 8¾d British Of this sum £23 Manx, or £19 14s 4½d British, was ivested in mortgage of a meadow forming part of the estate of Knockaloe-Beg, in the parish of Patrick This mortgage became what is termed lapsed in law, and the meadow fell into the hands of the Vicar and Wardens for the poor The old law was "that if a mortgage was not redeemed in 21 years the mortgagee had a right to enter into possession and seize the mortgaged property, no matter what was the value of it." From the effect of this old Manx law, as you may imagine, many cases of injustice arose. This meadow turned out to be a very good investment, as far as the poor were concerned. Although less than the sum of £20 British was invested in it, it now lets for £4 15s a year.

To the Rev. B. P. Clarke: The balance of that legacy (£14 11s 5½d) is at present a deposit in the Bank of Mona, on interest receipt dated the 31st of August, 1878. I have not the date of the mortgage, but I should say it will be from 70 to 80 years ago.

To Mr Corbett: The law relating to mortgages was repealed rather more than forty years ago, so that it must have been before that time. In 1743 Eleanor Moore left £5 Manx (£4 5s 8¾d British), and in 1746 Bishop Wilson left a similar sum to the poor of the parish. Both these sums are invested with other moneys on bond and security from John Taggart, each legacy realizing 4s 3½d per year. In 1750 John Craine left £10 Manx (£8 11s 5d British) to the poor of the parish. That is invested in Cooper's Mill. In 1747 Esther Teare left to the poor of the town a field called "Close Beg," and a parcel of meadow near Peel. This now forms part of the real estate belonging to the poor of the town. Close Beg now lets for £2 10s a year, and the meadow for £1 a year. In 1765 John Murray left to the poor of Peel the sum of £12 12s (British), and in 1791 Robert Wattleworth left £1 Manx, equal to 17s 12d British, also for the poor of the town. Both these are invested in bond an security on Close Chairn. In 1796 William Craine left £5 Manx (£4 5s 8d British) to the poor of the parish. This sum is invested in the Bank of Mona on interest receipt dated 31st August, 1878. In 1806 John Stevenson left £100 Manx (£85 14s 34d, British) to the poor of the parish and town. This was likewise invested in Cooper's Mill.

In the year 1810 Charles Cooper left his water corn mill, still calied "Cooper's Mill," and other property. to trustees to be applied for the use of the poor of the town of Peel. A full and minute account of this fund will be subsequently given. In 1822 Cesar Wattleworth left £100 to the poor of the town, and in 1824 John Caine left £15 to the poor of the parish. Both these sums are British, and both have been invested in Cooper's Mill. In 1826 Cesar Corris and Elizabeth Corris left £10 each for the poor of the town. This united sum of £20 is invested in bond and security on Close Chairn. In 1828 Alice Crellin and in 1833 John Crellin each left the sum of £20 British to the poor of the parish and town. Both these sums are invested in Cooper's Mill. In 1832 Eleanor Cain left £5 Manx (£4 5s 8½d British), to the poor of the parish and town. As in the former cases, this sum is invested in Cooper's Mill. In 1845 Ann Wattleworth left £2, and in 1847 Isabella Farrant left £20, both to the poor of the town, These amounts are invested in bond and security from John Taggart. These sums were British, as were all the sums which I shall mention from this time.

In 1849 John Quane left £6 to the poor of the parish. This legacy was not heard of for a long time. Several years after it was left the executor was called upon to pay it. He considered that he ought to pay interest on the money on account of the length of time he had it in his hands. He accordingly paid £3. This sum was added to the £6, the original amount of the legacy, and the £9 is invested on bond and security on Close Chairn. In the same year Thomas Corran left £30 to the town and £10 to the parish, both of which sums are invested in Cooper's Mill The bequest to the town is in these words:- I leave and hequeath to the poor of the town of Peel the sum of £30, to be secured by the vicar of the parish and wardens for the town, the interest of which to be divided yearly at their discretion, but no pauper to receive benefit therefrom who has not been resident therein for the last five consecutive years previous to their application." The bequest to the country is rather different :—"I give and bequeath to the poor of the parish of German the sum of £10, to be secured by the vicar and wardens of the parish, and the annual interest to be amongst them divided at the discretion of the vicar and wardens for the time being." In the year 1850 Caesar Wattleworth and Eleanor his wife, by their joint will left £50 to the poor of the town. By a clause in the will the payment of the money was deferred until the death of the survivor of the parties. Both parties are now dead, and the money has been paid over and invested on mortgage on Close Chairn.

In 1854 John Kelly left the sum of £10 to the parish. The money is not payable until after the death of his widow—a very old woman, who is yet alive. In 1854, William White left the sum of £10 to the poor of the town. It is invested in Cooper's mill. In 1862 Jane Cain left £10 to the poor of the town. It is invested in bond and security on Close Chairn. In the year 1864 Eleanor Jane Wulff left the sum of £300 to the town, the bequest being in these words :—"I leave and bequeath to the vicar and wardens of the parish of German the sum of £300, to be laid out at interest on good landed security for the benefit of the poor of the town of Peel, and I request the vicar and wardens to allow the interest arising therefrom to be distributed by Alicia Gawne during her life." The will is dated the 26th of November, 1852, and it was proved on the 25th of November, 1864. Miss Alicia Gawne is still alive, and she deputes the vicar to act as her almoner. The wardens, therefore, have nothing to do with the money at present, but we have given credit for it in our list of moneys be longing tothe poor of the town. It is at present dis tributed by the vicar amongst the poor of the town, but Miss Gawne might revoke that arrangement and depute another person to act for her at any time. That money is invested at 5 per cent., on bond and security, on the estate of the Garey, the bond being dated the 19th February, 1870. In the same year Miss Rose Gelling bequeathed £5 to the poor of the town of Peel, and Eleanor Wattle worth (widow of the Cesar Wattleworth who left a legacy of £50 to the poor of the town in 1850), the sum of £10 "towards and in support of poor widows in the town of Peel." Both these are secured by bond and security on Close Chairn,

In 1864 John Shimmin left £10 to the poor of the parish, which is also invested in bond and security on Close Chairn, and in 1867 Martha Bell left £10 to the poor of the town. In 1870 John Crellin, of Auburn Cottage, Ramsey, by his will, dated the 26th March, 1864, bequeathed £20 to the poor of the town. I give you the extract from his will :—"I give and bequeath unto the vicar and churchwardens of the parish of German the sum of £20, to be laid out at interest for the benefit of the poor of the town of Peel for ever." Probate of this will was granted to Charles Wright Shaw, of Windsor-terrace, Douglas, on the 16th April, 1870, Mr Crellin appointed his daughters executrices of his will, and probate was granted to Mr C. W. Shaw his son-in-law The family behaved in a most generous way They considered that the sum left by Mr Crellin was too small an amount of £20 left by Mr Crellin was too small an amount and they added £80 to it, making £100 which has been invested in bond and security on Close Chairn In 1870 an old gentleman, named John Quirk, of Churchtown, Lezayre, near Ramsey, left £50 to the poor of the parish. His will is dated the 6th June 1870, and ft was proved on the 18th of October nn the same year this bequest is in these words "I leave and bequeath all and singular the whole of my lands, house,and real estate of every description, and all my personal estate, to the vicar and wardens of the parish of Lezayre, to hold the said real and personal estate to them and their sucessors in office, in trust, for the following purposes, viz First, to pay all debts and funeral and the testmentary exponses ; secondly, to pay thereout a legacy of £80 to the poor of the parish of German, to be given out at interest, and secured by the vicar and wardens of the said parish of German, to be distributed yearly amongst the aforesaid poor." This £80 is invested by bond security on Close Chairn.

In 1874 Hugh Cannell left £10, and in the same year William Caine left £5, to the poor of the parish of German. In 1876 Margaret Ann Teare left the sum of £7 10s to the poor of the town. It was not, however, left in money, but in the shape of one-half of three shares in the Peel Waterworks Company. 'This moiety was valued at £7 10s, and the vicar and wardens purchased the remaining half of the three shares, at £7 10s. Consequently, they are the holders in the Company which at present realizes 6s each per annum at dividend. The last legacy which we have received is that of Mrs Margaret King, who, in 1876, left £50 to the poor of the town of Peel. This sum is deposited in the Bank of Mona on interest, the deposit receipt being dated the 25th November, 1876. The total amount of all these legacies is £1,079 2s 1d British.

To Mr Corbett: I will, for the information of the Commission, draw out a list of these legacies, showing what proportion goes to the poor of the town, and what proportion goes to the poor of the parish. From the £1,079 28 1d (the total amount of the legacies), must be deducted the sum of £10, the amount of John Kelly's legacy, which, you will remember, is not payable until the death of his widow ; leaving the net amount £1,069 2s ld. That is the actual amount which has been paid, and which is available for the relief of the poor. This amount is all in the hands of the vicar and wardens, except Mrs Wulff's legacy of £300, which, as I explained to you, is at the sole disposal of Miss Alicia Gawne during her lifetime, and who has deputed the vicar of German to act for her. The whole of the money in the hands of the vicar and wardens is invested in good landed security, with the exception of £100, which is invested in the Bank of Mona on deposit receipts. We now come to the legacies which we know have recently been left for the poor of the district, but which have not yet been paid over to the vicar and wardens. In 1877 Mr Thomas Clarke, jun., left a legacy of £50 to the poor of the town, and a further sum of £10 to the poor of the parish. Under the direction of his will, however, this sum is not to be paid until one year after probate thereof. His will was proved on the 18th of June last, and consequently this £60 may not be paid to the vicar and wardens until the 18th of June next year, Recently Mrs Maria Shaw, wife of Mr C. W. Shaw, of Windsor-terrace, Douglas, left a legacy of £500 to the poor of the town, She was a daughter of Mr John Crellin, of Ramsey, who left us the legacy of £20, which was so handsomely made up by her to £100. This legacy of £600 is unfortunately at present locked up in the Bank of Mona, I believe that, but for some little unforeseen accident, the money would have been paid over to the vicar and wardens before the close of that bank; but even if it had, it would have been in the same position locked up in the the Bank of Mona

The Rev. B.P.. Clarke You will be sure to get it some day

Witness Mr Shaw, of course is well able to pay it if the bank never pays it

Mr A, Dumbell; At all events Mr Shaw has not yet discharged himself.

Witness: When we get at these legacies, we shall have a total of about £1,640 for the poor of the town and parish. The great difficulty that the vicar and wardens have had, is with respect to the property belonging to the poor, known as "Cooper's Mill." It is a complicated affair, but I consider that a complete record of the facts relating to Cooper's Mill is absolutely and indispensably necessary in connection with the Peel charities and that an accurate account of it should appear in the notes of the proceedings of this Commission . in fact the account of the Peel and German charities would be very imperfect and incomplete without a full statement of this matter, The wardens have been blamed for what they have done from time to time in connection with Cooper's Mill; but I think that, when I explain the circumstances fully, it will be seen that no blame should be attached to them.

At page 67, of "The Isle of Man Charities," is given an extract of a conveyance from Mr Charles Cooper, of Peel, to Messrs Philip Moore, of Ballamoore, and John Gell, of Kenna, dated 28th November, 1810, whereby a dwelling-house and premises in Peel, and Cooper's Corn Mill and Premises, in Patrick, were conveyed by the said Charles Cooper to the said Moore and Gell, and to the survivor of them, and the heir of such survivor in trust; that they should permit Ann Cooper, the wife of the said Charles Cooper, to receive the rents of the premises during her life, subject to the payment of an annuity of £20 to the poor of Peel ; and upon her death that they should convey to or permit the vicar and wardens of German to possess the premises for the use of the poor of Peel for ever. No provision was made for the repairs of the mill and premises during the life time of the said Ann Cooper ; and in the year 1851, the mill and machinery being much out of repair, in consequence of age and natural decay, and a new mill having been erected in the immediate neighbourhood, which, to some extent, interfered with the old one, on application was presented to the honourable the Court of Chancery, by John Gell, Esq., the heir at law of the said John Gell (who was the survivor of the original trustees), as trustee of the said mill and premises, and by the Vicar and Wardens of German, and to which the said Ann Cooper was made a party, setting forth the circumstances, and praying that they might be authorized to raise such a sum of money as would be necessary to repair the said mill, and to erect a threshing mill in connection therewith. Upon hearing this petition, the Court referred the matter to his Honour the Clerk of the Rolls to report; and he, after taking evidence, reported that the sum of £129 15s would be required to be expended upon the said mill and machinery, to put the same into a sufficient state of repair ; and that the sum of £91 would be required to erect a threshing mill, with necessary machinery, in connection with the said corn mill, and which he recommended should be erected, the tenant of the premises (Hugh Clucas) having consented to pay the sum of £10 per annum as rent for such threshing mill, At a Chancery Court holden on the 19th August, 1851, the said trustee, and the Vicar and Wardens of German, were authorized and directed to raise, by way of a mortgage of the said mill and premises, the sum of £220 15s, being the united amounts reported by the Clerk of the Rolls for the purpose of repairing the corn mill and building the threshing mill, In terms of this decree, the repairs were proceeded with, and the threshing mill built, and the sum of £220 15s raised by way of mortage Upon the premises, the money having been an advanced by Jane Price Moore, through her guardian The mortgage ia dated 28th March, 1853, and bears interest, payable half-yearly, at the rate of 5 per cent, On the 19th July, 1856 Ann Cooper, widow of the sald Charles Cooper died, whereupon the dwelling house and premises in Peel, and the mill and premises to Patrick, became the sole property of the poor of Peel.

On the night of the 14th April, 1858, the mill, which was then in the possession of William Stowell as tenant, under lease dated 5th April in that year (at a rent of £52, including the threshing mill), was destroyed by fire. The mill had previously been insured in the Caledonian Insurance Offce, in the name of John Gell, as trustee, for the sum of £380 (independently of a separate insurance upon the threshing mill, which was uninjured), and which sum was divided as follows:— On building of mill, £200; on machinery, £150; on water wheel, £30: making a total of £380. Considerable delay took place before an arrangement was effected with the insurance company relative to the payment of the insurance money ; and it was not until December, 1858, and then after a lengthened correspondence, that the trustees and vicar and wardens were able to come to terms as to the amount which the office consented to pay and the wardens agreed to accept on account of the damages —namely, £339 18s, and which was assessed as follows :—To damages to building of mill, £180 ; for machinery, £150 ; for damages to waterwheel, £9 18s ; making a total of £339 18s.

It was considered advisable by the trustees and by the vicar and wardens that, instead of attempting to repair the old mill, an entirely new one should be erected on a larger scale, and that the same should be supplied with the most modern description of machinery, and that the lease held by the said Stowell should be cancelled. After some delay and treaty with the said Stowell, the lease held by him was surrendered, and plans, specifications, and estimates for the building of a new mill were procured by the trustee, vicar, and wardens. The parties were the Rev. J. L. Stowell, vicar ; Messrs John Gell, Henry Graves, Evan Quirk, Evan Gell, John S. Moore, and William Christian, wardens, the said John Gell being also trustee. They, at a meeting held on the 7th March, 1859, passed a resolution,

"That it would be for the present as well as the future benefit of the poor of the town that the said mill should be rendered as complete as possible, and that thereby a greatly improved rent would be obtained for the same; and that as the amount received from the Insurance Office would be far insufficient to complete such improvements, that any deficiency in the cost should be provided for from certain moneys now in the Bank of Mona, being the amount of various bequests to the poor, and which are lying comparatively unproductive waiting for eligible investments, and that a sufficient amount of such principal moneys should be applied in discharge of any deficiency that might appear necessary for the purpose, upon the understanding and express condition, however, that the principal money so applied should be repaid within a limited time."

It was at that time calculated that the total out lay connected with the building and fitting up of the said mill and other necessary improvements would be as follows:—

The trustee, vicar, and wardens then agreed "that a sum sufficient to meet the said estimated deficiency, or such particular amount as may, upon the completion of the work, be found necessay, shall be applied for the purposes aforesaid from and out of the moneys belonging to the poor, and comprising the amount of sundry bequests as aforesaid, upon the understanding that the sum of £25 at the least, and that, independent and exclusive of interest, shall be annually set apart from and out of the increased and improved rent which is expected to be obtained for the said new mill; and that the same shall be speciaily invested either in the bank or otherwise, so as to form an accumulating fund for the express purpose and object of replacing such principal amount, and thereby releasing both the said bequests and the said mill from incumbrance."

At the annual vestry for the parish of German, held on the Easter Monday, 1859, it was resolved " that the proceedings of the trustee of Cooper's Mill, and of the vicar wardens of this parish, with reference to the rebuilding of that mill, and the application of a portion of the poor's money towards the necessary outlay, dated the 7th March last, having been read to the vestry meeting, it is resolved that the same be approved of and confirmed ; and it is hereby declared that it shall be the duty of the future wardens of this parish to set apart out of the rents of the said new mill £25 per annum to form an accumulating fund whereout to reimburse the amount which may be applied towards the expenses of the new mill from the money belonging to the poor, until the same be paid, as determined upon by the resolution before named.' The miller's house belonging to the mill (which was merely a thatched cottage), being in a bad state of repair, the trustee and vicar and wardens found it to be indispensably necessary to erect a new and suitable dwelling-house for a tenant. On the 9th April, 1860, an account, of which the following is an abstract, was submitted to the annual vestry :—

Statement af the expenses incurred in rebuilding "Cooper's Corn Mill," building new Dwelling-house and Stable, repairing Dam, Damhead, Race, &c. 1859 AND 1860.

The above was was discharged in the following manner

Attached to the foregoing statement was a report or explanation from the wardens, in the following terms:- "In balancing and submitting the foregoing account, the wardens think it right to explain that the expenses attending the rebuilding of Cooper's corn mill, and rendering complete it for a tenantt, have far exceeded their expectations and thorough estimate they formerly made, and referred to in their resolution of the 14th Aprll, 1859, The estimated cost at that time was set down at £639 18s; whereas the total outlay haa been £845 18s 5d The heavy items to the excess, as the foregoing account will show, are for repairing and amending the dam head and mill race, masons' and joiners' work for such being £51 13s 9d ; timber for same, £14 10s 6d; cartage, £17 4s 3d. And for the building of a new dwelling-house and stable for miller: the cost of the former being £86 17s 11d; and of the latter, for mason work, £9 4s 8d; and for timber, £8 5s. In addition to these there were various incidental expenses connected with the repairs, which were unavoidable. The wardens, however, have the satisfaction of reporting that the mill is now a most efficient one, and that they have let it on lease to a practical miller (William Cashen) at the rent of £80 per annum.

In consequence of the extra expenditure, as before explained, the wardens have been obliged to take up the sum of £310 belonging to the poor, being the amount of divers legacies to the poor, and which were lodged in the Bank of Mona, waiting for investment; also, the sum of £54 5s 9d, belonging to the school at St. John's, and which had also been lodged in the said Bank. These, together with the balance of £57 12s, stated in the foregoing account, show a total of £471 17s 9d, as being a charge and in the nature of an incumbrance upon the mill and premises, to be repaid by instalments out of the increased rent of the said mill, as referred to in the former resolution of the 14th April, 1859, and confirmed by the last act of vestry In consequence of this great excess, the wardens now beg to recomend that the balance of £57 12s, and which is due to the Bank of Mona, should be entirely discharged by the new wardens, out of the first year's rent, recoverable by them, and that the sum of £30 (instead of £25, as formerly proposed) of the rent of the mill be annually set apart and paid into the Bank of Mona, or such other bank as the future wardens may determine upon, as an accumulating fund, until the full amount so taken up belonging to the poor, and to the St. John's School, shall be paid as was formerly resolved."The wardens beg leave to recommend to their successors the advisability of covering over the tail race at the mill, and enclosing the easement attached."

At the annual vestry for the parish, held on Easter Monday, 9th April, 1860, the following resolution was passed :— "The account connected with the building of Cooper's Corn Mill, and the statement and explanation of the wardens respecting the same, dated this day, having been laid before the vestry, and having been considered, the account is approved of, and the recommendation of the wardens adopted, and confirmed in every respect." The dwelling-house in Peel is let at the rent of £12. The arrangements made, and the understanding come to that £30 per annum should be set apart out of the rents of the mill, to form an accumulating fund, to pay off or replace the amounts so invested on the mill, were not, however, carried out, and no such accumulating fund, as was contemplated, has consequently been created.

The mill, however, has not turned out to be a paying property. On the contrary, it has been gradually depreciating in value. Tenants have frequently changed, and the rent has from time to time been obliged to be reduced. The average rent for some time past has not been more than one-half what was anticipated. This depreciation of mill property is not exceptional. That class of property has fallen in value all through the Island, consequent upon the fact that the local millers are not able to compete successfully with the large mills in Enfgland, from which great quantities of flour are annually imported inte the Island It is, I may add, the intention of the vicar and wardens to apply to the Chancery Court for permission to sell the mill.It is a really valuable property, and, I think, will readily sell. I am fall of hope that much more than the amount expended on it will be obtained, and that the poor will by no means be a loser by the transaction, As a mill it is useless, and as there has been a new mill erected higher up the river, there is, I fear, very little chance of the property, as a corn mill, ever bringing in anything like the amount of rent formerly estimated

To Mr A. Dumbell: The wardens allowed the new mill to be erected higher up the stream, and that no doubt depreciated the value of the ancient mill—the property of the poor of Peel. So far as I know, no licence was, in accordance with the ancient law, obtained for the erection of the new mill.

Mr A. Dumbell: Then I am afraid that the vicar and wardens, as trustees (for the benefit of the poor) of the ancient mill, have neglected their duty in allowing the new mill to be erected without a licence.

To Mr Corbett: What the present wardens consider the best thing to do, in the difficulty that has been got into, is to present a petition to the Chancery Court for permission to sell the whole property and get rid of it. I do not think there will be any loss in doing so, for the building can be converted to some other use than that of a corn mill.

To Mr J.M. Jeffcott: In my opinion, it is worth considerably more than £800. It is a very valuable property.

To the Rev. E. W. Kissack: There is some and—I think between two and three acres—attached to it. It is not far from the town, and would be useful for many purposes. I do not anticipate there will be any loss ultimately to the poor.

To Mr Corbett: The rent now received just pays the interest and charges.

To Mr J. M. Jeffcott: The poor will not, in ny opinion, lose sixpence by the affair. Their funds will be recouped out of the proceeds of the sale. There has been no absolute loss heretofore except the decreased rent.

To Mr Corbett: The poor funds are no doubt in a worse position than they were before, as they got about £20 a year interest on the money when deposited in the bank or otherwise invested, but now they do not receive that amount. In fact they became their own mortgagees. So far I have explained the position of the mill property, but in addition to what I have mentioned we have other funds and charities for the poor. For instance, we ave a clothing Fund. At Christmas time there is about £24 worth of wearing apparel distributed to about 80 poor people. This is done every year. the garments given to them will be worth 5s or 6s each. It is managed by two ladies, Miss Stowell and my wife. The recipients get these clothes without any pay whatever. The recipients do not subscribe to it and get clothes in return. It is a pure charity in every respect. Another charity which we have is called "The Tea and Sugar Fund." Through this fund about half-a-dozen poor old women get half an ounce of tea and half a pound of sugar weekly. The average amount of this fund will be about £8 year. Some years ago the fund was larger, but lately the subscriptions have fallen off.

To Mr J. M. Jeffcott: The clothes from the clothing Fund are distributed entirely without distinction of creed or nationality. Poverty is the only test of fitness. The same remark applies to the Tea and Sugar Fund.

To Mr Corbett: Then we have a Coal Fund, the amount distributed by that fund will be about £25 a year. I don't know the number of recipients The wardens will tell that; but the charity is, as far as I can learn working very well, and is distributed irrespective of creed. There are several parties who subscribe annually to this fund. For instance, Mr J. K. Ward,of Canada, regularly sends £5 a year through the High Bailiff of Douglas. It is generally applied in coals. Misses Crellin, of Ramsey, and Mr C.W Shaw, of Douglas, generally send £10 a year each, which is applied in the same way. Of course I am not acquainted with the actual number of poor except what I have seen from the returns, Mr Cowley, one of the town wardens, will give you all that information. There is no organized system ot relief here, in which all parties join as they do in Castletown. I was very much pleased with their system, and wish we had something of the kind here.

To the Chairman : Our real estate belonging to the poor consists of Knockaloe meadow, producing, as I stated before, £4 15s a year ; Close Beg ('Teare's) producing £2 10s a year; Congary, £1 a year ; Cooper's Mill, which produces £45 a year, interest and rates, £40 8s a year, leaving a balance of £4 12s ; and Cooper's House, £12 a year; making a total annual income from real estate of £24 17s,

To Mr Corbett : There is a regular system here —and has been so far as my recollection goes back, say upwards of forty years— of house to house begging. A large number take Saturday as their raiding day, and droves of them go from house to house.

To the Rev. B. P. Clarke: They do not all belong to Peel. A good many of them come in from the country. Many come from Douglas.

To Mr Corbett: I could not give you anything like an idea of the amount these roving beggars receive, but I can tell you what they get at my house, and I bave no doubt that many other per sons in Peel give quite as much. There are, to start with, 18 who come to our house every Saturday, and they get a penny each, regularly. Then a certain number come every Monday, and about half-a-dozen on different other days.

To the Rev. B. P. Clarke: All these are regular recognised beggars.

To Mr Corbett : Some of them are of a better class, and they get more than a penny. We put away 3s a week in coppers, as a general relief for beggars at the door. Others in the town no doubt give as much, if not more. We do not give indiscriminately at our house. There are recognised recipients. Some of these better-class beggars get 2d or 3d each when they come. Three shillings a week is the minimum of the relief which we give at our door to these beggars weekly. This is of course irrespective of contributions to other charities.

To Mr J. M. Jeffcott : No doubt some of these beggars are also relieved by the vicar and wardens, and also receive relief from other sources, Those who belong to Peel are known. If it could be ascertained with accuracy it would he found that the amount given in this sort of charity each year is very large.

To the Rev. B. P. Clarke : So far as the burial of paupers is concerned, the custom is to charge the cost of the coffin and shroud against the parochial asgessment. The wardens employ a joiner to make the coffins, and at the Easter Vestry the accounts are brought in and paid. The poor relief fund is relieved of that cost ; but I may say that, as was shown to be the case at Castletown and elsewhere the funeral of a poor person who has been allowed to be maintained on charity is often paid for by friends or relations, who are heard of, for the first time perhaps, after the death of the pauper.

To Mr Corbett: Many persons dislike their relations being buried as paupers, although they do not object to allow them to receive relief as paupers. I pay from £9 to £10 a year as a voluntary poor rate to beggars alone. This is in fact, a very heavy rate in itself, without considering other calls by way of charity.

To the Chairman: In fact I would be better if I had a compulsory rate to pay. Following the footsteps of Castletown to some extent. I have given notice to the secretaries of the different friendly societies to show the amount they give in what I may call "Insurance relief."

To Mr Corbett ; We have no cottage hospital or other building for the reception of infectous or other diseases ; neither have we any alms-house, house of industry, or other building, available for the reception of poor persons, but I may state that Miss Ann Thomas, a lady who died some years ago, by her will directed that a sort of alms-house should be erected; but the provisions of her will in that respect have not yet been complied with. And, even should her will be carried out, the institution will not be under the charge of the vicar and wardens, Her will is dated the 5th of November, 1856, and was proved about ten years ago, when her two nephews— Colonel Alexander John James Macdonald, and Colonel William: James Anderson—were executors.

An extract from her will, will put the whole matter before the Commission :

I give and devise uoto my nephews, Alexander John James Macdonald and William James Anderson, all my shares in the 'Douglas, Isle of Man, Steampacket Company,' and all my shares in the 'Douglas Gas and Waterwork Companies,' with this proviso, that the dividends upon them be laid up in some good security, at interest, for four years after my death, and that the whole of the money so accumulated be laid out in purchasing or build ing an alms-house in the town of Peel for the accommodation of as many poor old women as it may contain; and that they both, my executors as hereinafter named, and the survivor of them, and the heirs of such survivor, shall have the entire control and management of the above-named house, to admit and to reject therefrom any who they, or he, may think an objectionable inmate. To my two nieces, Louisa Sage Anderson and Sophia Helen Anderson, I give and bequeath all my shares in the 'London Steam Navigation Company,' and likewise all my shares in the 'London and North-Western Railway Company,' upon the express condition that they jointly pay every year from the dividends accruing upon the said shares, to the undermentioned charities, the following sums:—To the 'British and Foreign Bible Society,' 'The Church Missionary Society,' and the 'London Society tor Promoting Christianity among the Jews,' the sum of £2 each annually ; to the 'Douglas House of Industry and to 'The Isle of Man General Hospital,' the sum of £2 each annually, each and every of the sums so payable by said nieces to be paid to the persons who, for the time being, may be treasurers of the said several charities or societies. To my niece, Ann Cosnahan Macdonald, I leave my share in the cottage and concerns at Peel, situate at the end of Kirk Patrick-street ; likewise my share in the houses in Peveril-terrace, Peel, and my share in the smack Manthe Dhoo, unto her, her heirs and assigns, desiring that my said niece, A. C. Macdonald, pay yearly to the above-named alms house to be established at Peel, as aforesaid, the sum of £2, for the repairs and improvements of the same,"

To the Chairman: You will perceive that the alms-house was to be subject to the sole control of the executors or their survivors. I am aware that the dividends alluded to were allowed to accumulate, as instructed by the testatrix. The direction was to the nephews and their survivors; but, unfortunately, a difference arose between them, and they quarelled. The estate has never been wound up, and it has become involved in the Chancery Courts of England and of this Island. The dividends on the shares mentioned will probably come to upwards of £300 for the four years, and that monney with interest, wil be forthcoming eventually. It is no doubt properly invested, and probably there will be £500 to the good. After the dividends had accrued, the shares were sold.

To Mr Corbett There has been no bullding erected, but the fund will form the nucleus of a very good institution — one that will be a great benefit to the town You will observe, as I have before stated, that the vicar and wardens have nothing to do with it. It is entirely in the discretion of these two gentlemen, who have quarrelled. Neither of them will voluntarily carry out the bequest, but a suit is pending in the Court of Chancery, and the whole affair is now in train for a settlement. Mr Lumsden and myself are married to the two nieces, and we are urging the matter on to a settlement.

To the Rev. H. S. Gill: Yes. you are right. There has been a bequest for the relief of the poor nearly every year for a considerable time. I believe that if there was a compulsory rate there would be, if not a total cessation of these bequests for the poor, at all events a great decrease in their number. Very few would be likely to leave anything if there was a compulsory rate for the support of the poor. Such a rate would bave a decided tendency to dry up the sources of private charity.

Mr Corbett: The witness is a member of the Commission, and that is hardly a proper question to put to a member. It is only an opinion. It is not a statement of fact.

To the Rev. B. P. Clarke: In this district, as elsewhere in the Island, large sums are paid to widows and orphans by Oddfellows and other societies.

To the Rev. E. W. Kissack: It would no doubt be very difficult to stop begging here. The system has existed so long that it has become a sort of institution. Since, however, I heard of the excellent organization at Castletown, I think that some such system might be adopted here I feel satisfied that such a system would result beneficially alike to the deserving poor and to the charitable funds at our disposal.

To Mr Corbett: If some such system as that in operation at Castletown were adopted here, it would, I think, to a large extent, stop house to house begging. I am of opinion that it is most desirable to have some such system. I would not on any account make it compulsory, but would have it a voluntary organization like Castletown. I was greatly struck with the manner in which the system for the relief of the poor is carried out there. I think that with some little pains we might get up a similar plan here; and it would be a great blessing to the town, as it would put the administration ef charitable relief on a proper footing. I do not see any reason why we should not establish a very effective voluntary system here. It would put charity on a proper basis.

To the Chairman: We have no hospital here — nothing but this alms-house in prospect.

To the Rev. B. P. Clarke: We have no system of medical attendance. During the recent epidemic we had two cases of smallpox in Peel. Both patients were sent to the Hospital in Douglas, they having come from Douglas affected with the disease. This was in 1877. Those were the only cases that the vicar and wardens knew of.

To Mr Corbett: The absence of a system of medical attendance is a great defect in this town and district.

To Mr J. M. Jeffcott: I presume that the medical men attend the poor gratis. There is no one to pay them, at all events.

To the Rev. E. W. Kissack: There are two medical men in Peel; they attend to the neighbouring parishes as well.

To Mr Corbett: So far as the poor are concerned, we are entirely dependent upon the good nature of these two medical gentlemen. To the Rev, B. P. Clarke I believe that smallpox would have spread if we had not sent the two persons who were infected back to Douglas. They were sent back under direct Instructions given to me by his Excellency the Lieutenant Governor I do not think that there is any necessity for a small hospital here.

To Mr Corbett: The two patients were sent back to Douglas in a car. Information was given to his Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor that there were two cases of smallpox here, and by his directions the hospital car was sent for them. I have no doubt that it is to the prompt measures taken by the Governor that we are indebted for stamping out the smallpox. He had given instructions as to what should be done in case the epidemic broke out. There was a sanitary committee formed in the town, and every provision was made to prevent the spread of the disease, Preventive measures were adopted in every town and village; disinfectants were distributed ; and every precaution taken. These measures were taken by order of the Lieutenant-Governor, and if it had not been for them the disease would not have been stamped out so soon as it was.

To the Chairman: I think that an industrial home for children would be a good thing for the town of Peel. Indeed, one for the whole Island would be an advantage. An industrial home for children was instituted in Ramsey some years ago by Miss Gibson, and two children were sent from Peel to be inmates of that Home. Some small subscriptions were made in the town afterwards, and sent towards payment of the expense.

To the Rey. H. S. Gill: I am not aware of any deserted children being on the poor relief funds There have been some orphans sent from here to the Seamen's Orphanage in Liverpool.

To Mr Corbett: There is no doubt about it that there is a place required for orphans and deserted children for the Island generally. If there was such a place, it would be taken advantage of in many cases.

To the Chairman : I do not think it is necessary to have a separate hospital or dispensary for Peel. I am not prepared to say anything on this point with reference to the country. The medical men will be able to give the Commission information on that point. The number of poor in the parish irrespective of the town is very small.

To Mr Corbett: Even a small cottage hospital would, I think, be attended with considerable expense, and I scarcely think that such a thing is required. I am very much afraid that if such an institution were provided, the poor would for a long time decline to go into it. I do not think it would be used for several years. Notwithstanding that there is such a want of medical attendance for the poor, I am very much afraid that they would not, except in a very few cases, agree to be removed to a hospital. They would, I am certain, prefer to remain in their own rooms, If a hospital did not involve a certain amount of expense and compulsion, I agree with you that it would be a very good thing to have such an institution here. I do not at all approve of compulsion. There would be no great difficulty about establishing a hospital here except that it would be attended with expense. A portion of the funds belonging to the poor might be judiciously expended in that way ; but my great objection and fear is that such an institution would run into an amount of expense which would be injudicious and beyond our means. Our great defect is a want of some proper system of medical attendance on the poor, and some means of properly providing and dicpensing medicines for them.

To Mr J, M. Jeffcott; As to house to house begging I think that evil might be met by organization, such as by the inhabitants subscribing to some poor relief fund, to be managed and dispensed by a committee.

To Mr Corbett; Something similar to the Castletown Poor Relief Committe would no doubt be a great blessing to the town and its established inhabitants, I would be glad to see a proper organiaation for relief. I have no doubt it would be a great saving to me and others who give so much relief at the poor.

To the Chairman; I am not aware whether the Nonconformists contribute anything to the funds the poor dispensed by the vicar for the relief of and wardens, The wardens will inform you on that point.

Mr William Cowley

Mr William Cowley, Peel, examined.

To the Chairman:; I am one of the two wardens for the parish of German, and reside at Peel. From the number of times I have served as one of the churchwardens for Peel, I am thoroughly acquainted with the poor of the town, and their requirements. The annual average of church collections for the past three years, is £93 7s 9.5d. The proportion of church collections apportioned to the relief of the poor is £64 0s 3d, less the expenses connected with lighting the church, &c., out of the evening collections. The deductions for this purpose would amount to about £12, leaving £52 for the relief of the poor. The proceeds of the church collections are used for the poor of Peel only. We give the bequests to the poor of the parish. Amongst our paupers are two females entirely dependent upon charity for support. The number of persons whom we have partially dependent on charity for support is 62, of whom seven are males varying from 40 to 76 years of age, and 55 are females ranging from 30 to 95 years of age.

To Mr Corbett: We have no men able to earn their own living. They have been disabled by sickness, or some other cause. We would not relieve a man who could work. At all events, unless he was disabled, we would not give relief to a man under 70 years of age. The younger women receiving relief are either widows, or have been disabled by sickness. We assist able-bodied widows in the winter, but it is only sometimes we do that. The widows we assist are generally those who have one or two children. If we learn that they are earning enough to maintain themselves and their children, we stop the relief.

To the Chairman: These widows are generally, the widows of seamen.

To Mr Corbett ; We distribute the relief to the poor weekly. The largest amount we give is 6s a week. It is given in money. That is the amount given to the two who are wholly dependent on relief. None of the others get so much as that. To some of those partially dependent we give as much as 3s and 3s 6d a week. We give 3s a week to one, and 2s 6d a week to a person to attend to him. He is an old man, quite infirm. There are two women, mother and daughter, to whom we give 3s each, besides paying a woman to attend on them in their own place. We only allow 6d a week to the person who attends on them, and they are also assisted by their own friends. One woman gets only 6d a week. The reason we give her that small sum is that she was allowed that many years ago, when it was thought sufficient, and it has been continued ever since, When they apply to us, we relieve them as far ag possible with the funds at our disposal, We give just what we are able to assist the friends of the poor in keeping the poor belonging to them. Perhaps it would be better to give substantial relief in a smaller number of cases, than to give each small doles amongst a great number. Giving these small doles amongst such a large number may, as you say, have a pauperizing effect.

To the Rev. G. Paton: I agree with you that giving these small pittances in very many instances induces their friends to help them when they otherwise would not do so.

To Mr Corbett : In other words they get relief from other sources. They get clothes and coals from the Clothes and Coal Funds, as well as relief from the poor fund under our control, and some of the poorest have relief from the "Tea and Sugar Fund" besides. We have no proper nurse to attend to the old and infirm poor, but we get some poor old woman to attend on them. It is a kind of charity to her to get her to attend on the others,

To the Chairman : I do not know how some of the poor pay their rents.

To Mr. R. J. Moore: There are two or three ladies who collect money specially to pay rent for some of the poorest of the poor.

To the Chairman: In the winter time many of the poor are allowed 6d a week extra.

To Mr Corbett : The usual rate of relief is from 6d to 1s a week. That is for those partially dependent on relief. 3s a week is paid in one case for attendance alone. I am not aware of the number which receive 1s and the number that receive 6d a week, but they are about equally divided, I think. I admit that it is a very small relief, but you must remember the help they get from elsewhere, and also that in the winter months we generally put them on 2s a nonth extra. We give that extra relief to all who were in receipt of any relief at all. We have no knowledge whatever of what relief these poor people get from other sources, I never made any inquiry.

To the Chairman : I do not think there is any grumbling. We inquire into every case that is represented as being more than usually necessitous, and if necessary we increase the allowance. In fact we inquire at some time or other into every case in which we give relief.

To Mr R. J. Moore: A great many of those who are in receipt of relief from us also go begging from door to door.

To Mr Corbett: Almost all these people get assistance from friends or relations, or both; but we do not know what is the ammount of relief they get in this way.

To the Rev. E. W Kissack: We have no poor deserted children on our list of those in receipt of relief, but we have several widows with families

To Mr R, J. Moore: The population is increasing, but we have no pauper children,

To Mr Corbett: In the case of widows, our relief is given for the children, leaving the mothers to shift for themselves Many of the widows are engaged in the net manulactortes, and in other ways.

To Mr R. J. Moore; Some of these persons go about begging, and others work

To Mr Corbett; No doubt a great number of those who get partial relief go about amongst those who go round on the Saturdays and other days making a raid on the houses and shops, but we still continue them on our regular relief list. I cannot answer your question whether it is desirable, or expedient, or a proper thing to do, to thus give relief to professional beggars, as we do, All I can say is that it has always been done, and that we have not changed the system; but I fully agree with you that it would be a very good thing if we had a proper organization for charitable relief, so that we might know what these poor persons were getting from all sources, and be able to apportion the relief to the really deserving. I don't know it for a fact, but I have very little doubt but that, under the present indiscriminate system, some get more than they ought to do, and that others, more deserving, get less.

To the Rev. G. Paton: I believe that the majority of those who give pence at the doors would be in favour of a kind of central committee for the distribution of charitable relief.

To Mr Corbett: I believe, however, that, under the present system, the wants of every one are supplied. There is no case of starvation, or of great distress, that is not promptly relieved.It is very frequently the case that in cases of great distress a special fund is got up by means of a petition, or otherwise. I am not in a position to say whether the sick poor are attended to or not. I agree with you that it would be a very good thing if some one — the High-Bailiff, or the churchwardens, or some one in authority—had power to send the medical man, in case of need, to attend on the sick poor. I am not in a position to say whether or not it would be desirable to have in the town a small hospital. Of course the poor might be better treated in a hospital, but I am not in a position to say that they would be sooner cured—probably they would be. As you say, it is probable that the bread winner of the family, if when ill he was treated in a hospital, would be sooner cured, and thus be sooner able to return to work for his family, than if he were treated in his own house; and, that being so, it would have the effect of preventing the necessity for applications for charitable relief.

To Mr R. J. Moore: The poor here on the whole are very well housed.

To Mr Corbett: In some cases whole families live in two or three rooms. I have no experience of two or three families huddled together in one room, some of them ill, and I do not believe that such exist in Peel; nor have I heard of cases of women "lying in," and adults living in the same room. We have had cases of helpless imbeciles and incurables, and it might perhaps have been as well to have had some institution for their accommodation, and for that of bedridden old people suffering from unpleasant diseases.

To the Chairman: The poor are well provided for in Peel, so far as I know. Now, as in the old times, they are in the habit of laying in their stock of herrings when they are cheap.

To Mr Corbett: Most of the relief which we give as churchwardens is given in money. In such cases as we are afraid they will make bad use of the money—which cases are very few—we give orders on shops. We only do this in cases where we fear that they will drink the money. We have only about half-a-dozen such cases on our list.

To the Rev. E. W. Kissack: I do not know that any of our recipients for relief are also in receipt of money from clubs.

Mr Graves (a warden): The recipients of relief are nearly all women, and none of them receive anything from clubs.

To Mr Corbett We have met with a few cases of relatives who decline to support their poor relations, but we have not put the law on this subject into force. There are very few cases of such a nature We distribute the whole of our invested funds, as well as our church collections, amongst the poor, The two town wardens decide every case of relief in the town, leaving the parish to the country wardens, Sometimes we visit the homes of the poor in order to make ourselves acquainted with their circumstances, Sometimes several months will pass without our seeing them at their home unless they are ill. We know the circumstances of each case so well that there is no need for us to visit them.

To the Chairman: Mr Clucas, our parish clerk, knows every one of them. We don't know exactly those who beg, and those who don't.

To Mr Corbett: I think every case in which relief is given is pretty well investigated. There is no imposition—at least I think not—but it would be desirable to know who beg and who do not,

To Mr R. J. Moore: We receive very little help from the Dissenters of the town. In December, 1876, the Primitive Methodists gave £1 7s 6d to the general fund for the relief of the poor, That was a special collection. That is the only amount that has come into my hands from the Dissenters for the poor during the last two years, I do not think they have sent any more.

The Chairman; The Wesleyan-Methodists sent £5 10s for the Isle of Man Hospital. It was paid over to me by Mr Keig. We received £12 10s from the Church for the same object. That will entitle them to tickets.

To Mr Corbett : We relieve all cases, quite irrespective of creed or nationality. We never think of asking such a quests as "what sect" they belong to.

To the Rev. E. W. Kissack: I think that pauperism is very much on the decrease in Peel,

To the Chairman: Drunkenness has decreased wonderfully since I came to live here. I attribute that to the death of one man in this town. The manner of his death frightened them.

To Mr Corbett : I think that people are becoming nore provident in their habits. They are very careful and economical in their habits now, compared with what they were a few years ago. The fishermen are very provident, and very often bank their money. We do not inquire whether the poor people to whom we give relief are members of a club, or not.

To the Chairman: The Roman Catholic congregation have never given us anything for the poor. They may give relief to their own poor that we do not know of.

To Mr Corbett: I do not know whether the members of the different denominations in Peel relieve their own poor, or not.

To the Rev. E. W. Kissack: It would be better the members of the different religions denominations combined in the administration of a united fund for poor relief. I do not know whether they would do so, or not. It has never been tried.

To the Rev. G. Paton: I would be quite willing work with the others.

To Mr Corbett: There is a very good feeling amongst all sects here, and I think they might be got to work together.

To the Chairman: So good is the feeling between different denominations that many people go to boh places of worship—to the church in the morning and to the chapel in the evening,

Mr Graves (the other town warden): I can add nothing to the statements of my brother warden.

Mr John Callin,

Mr John Callin, Peel, examined,

To Mr R. J, Moore; I am secretary to the Loyal Peveril Lodge of Oddfellows, in Peel, We have 241 members resident in that town, and we have at the present time 17 widows and 20 orphans recipients from the lodge funds

To Mr Corbett : The widows reveive 1s each per week, and 3d is allowed for each child under the age of 14 years, Last year we distributed the sum of £57 4s amongst the widows and orphans alone. A large number of the members of our lodge are labouring men and fishermen,

To the Chairman: The amount given in relief amongst the members of the lodge from the 24th of December last year to the 11th of November— say eleven months—was £120 15s 8d. This was for sick money, and was in addition to medical attendance and medicine.

To Mr R. J. Moore: We supply the doctor and medicine. On the death of a member, funeral money to the extent of £10 is given to his widow, and on the death of a wife £5 is given to the widower. There is no allowance in the case of the death of a child.

To the Chairman: There is a burial club in the the Town. The number of members of the club has increased very much in the past year or two.

To Mr R. J, Moore: We often get up an entertainment for the benefit of the poor.

To Mr Corbett: The relief is distributed to the poor in money or coals, or in some other way. We annually distribute from £20 to £25 in this way.

To Mr R. J. Moore: The relief is not given amongst our own society. It is distributed by ourselves amongst poor people, quite irrespective of creed or nationality.

To the Chairman: During my experience, I have never known a case of an Oddfellow receiv ing pauper relief.

To Mr Corbett : I have known of an Oddfellow's widow and an orphan or two receiving relief.

To the Chairman: As a rule, the members would rather subscribe amongst themselves than have one of their members supported by charity.

To Mr Corbett: The money we give is given quite irrespective of creed.

Mr Thomas Kelly.

Mr Thomas Kely, Peel, examined.

To Mr R. J. Moore: I am agent in Peel for the Prudential Assurance Society. I have 612 members in my book. Of these about 520 are resident in the town alone, and the remainder in the country. In three years the Society has paid about £80 in funeral money alone in Peel I do not remember the amount last year. That would be a low average.

To the Rev. G. Paton: That was for funeral expenses alone. The weekly payments for members varies from 1d upwards. - The amount given in relief varies according to age. At a young age 1d a week will secure £10 at death. The older the member the smaller the amount given in funeral money.

To the Chairman : I have never known in this Island a case of infanticide induced by the premiums held out for funerals. Such cases may have occurred, but they have never come to my knowledge.

Mr William Faragher.

Mr William Faragher, Peel, examined.

To Mr R. J. Moore: I am secretary to the Peel Artificers' Society. We have altogether about 110 members, of whom about 80 are in the town. During the last three years we have paid on an average about £162 a year to sick members. We do not include the burial meney in that average amount. The town funerals for the last three years have averaged £20 a year ; and for doctors' attendance £9 15s 2d a year. The benefits comprise sick money, doctors' attendance, and medicines.

To the Chairman: I think that a central organization for the relief of the poor would be desirable, and that it would be beneficial to the poor. I belong to the Church myself, and, judging by my own feelings, I think all denominations would work harmoniously together, I think they would sll pull together. I am decidedly of opinion that here should be a stop put to street-begging. The example would do good, for we find little ones growing up as beggars, following in the footsteps of their parents. I would hand all charitable funds over to the control of the central committee.

To Mr Corbett: The present system is a great evil, and I observe that under it begging is becoming professional and hereditary. If we may believe what they themselves say, some of the beggars make a very good thing out of it, earning as much as from 10s to 20s a week.

To the Rev. E. W. Kissack: I refer to the tramps—not to the Peel beggars.

To the Chairman: A great proportion of the money finds its way into the public-house. Amongst these beggars are numbers who take their position up at the foot of the hills, and pester the visitors.

To Mr Corbett: I think that it would be a very good thing to have an industrial home to which destitute children and orphans could be sent. I mean an institution for the whole Island. I do not think, however, that there are many children in Peel whe would require to be taken to such an institution. There is gener ally some one to take them in.

To the Rev, B. P. Clarke: I am quite of opinion that there should be a better system af attendance on the poor in country districts.

To Mr Garbett: I have heard of cases where poor people have been ill in outlying parts of the country, ond not being able to pay for a doctor to attend oo them, It would, I think, be a most advisable thing if there was some place where the poor poople evald get medical attendance.

To the Rev, E.W. Kissack; I do not think however, that it is necessary to have an authorised medical attendant for the poor of this district.

Mr John James Kelly.

Mr John James Kelly, Peel, examined :

To Mr R. J. Moore: I am Chief Ruler of the Star of Mona Rechabite Tent, Peel. We have 305 members in the town of Peel. I find on reference to our books that we paid in sick relief, &c., in this year, from the 31st of March, 1877, the sum of £305 7s 3d. We have 468 members in good standing on the books, and there will be more than two-thirds of these resident in Peel; 80 that about two-thirds of the relief will be given in Peel.

To the Chairman: The number of members has increased to the extent of 150, and we have nearly doubled our numbers during the last five years.

To Mr R. J. Moore: The society also pays for medical attendance and for medicine. The doctor is allowed 2s for each town member, and 2a 6d for each country member. Each member pays it into the society, and the society makes an arrange ment with the medical man. He is bound to attend the members at that price—2s for each town member, and 2s 6d for each country member. The distance is limited to eight miles. He has to go that distance into the country to attend a country member. That distance would include Glenmay, Foxdale, and nearly as far as the Union Mills.

To the Chairman: We sometimes hear of members complaining of the medical attendance, but I do not think that they have any real grounds for doing so. Dr. Higgins is the medical attendant, and I believe that he does his duty well.

To Mr R. J. Moore: We paid £70 for funerals last year for the whole tent. About two thirds of that would be for the town. We also have a Juvenile Rechabite Tent, containing about 100 members. In the case of the death of a child the parent receives exactly the amount of money which has been paid in, with a little deduction for the annual expenses.

To the Rev. B. W. Kissack: Dr Higgins has the three local clubs—the Artificers, the Rechabites and the Oddfellows.

To the Chairman: Drunkenness was on the decrease very greatly, but I think that it is on the increase now. This has arisen, I think, from the importation of navvies here, in connection with the construction of the Manx Northern Railway. That is the only reason I can give for the increase of drunkenness. I think that, if there was a central organization, and if each denomination in the town were represented on it, the relief would be distributed more fairly. There would be less imposition, and, I daresay, more money forth coming than there is at present.

To Mr Corbett: We would be able to relieve deserving cases more effectually ; while undeserving applicants would be discouraged, and begging would be put a stop to. I think that begging from door to door should be put a stop to by law As a rule, these begging tramps get money in the morning, and get drunk in the evening. I have myself seen them lying drunk in the middle of the road, and have removed them to the side of the hedge, so that they might not be run over, They are mostly tramps, from Douglas and else where, very few of them belonging to Peel.

To Mr Corbett : These tramping beggars arrive in Peel every Saturday, for the purpose of getting money. I do not know where you would get half-a-dozen resident in Peel altogether. Most of them come from Douglas, and they lodge at the intermediate villages. They go regularly round the Island, taking Peel on the way. There is no system whatever for the relief of the poor except through the 'vicar and wardens,

I think that if there was an organized system it would stop begging. We should be able to ascertain who were the really deserving poor and to relieve them, and let the others go where they came from, to be supported there.

To the Rev. B. P. Clarke: There are no doubt some people who will not turn these street beggars away from their doors, but I think that the money they give them is thrown away.

To Mr Corbett: There is no place of shelter in Peel for these tramps. They give shelter to them in some of the farm-houses. There used to be a general custom of giving shelter to tramps, but it is passing away. The police do not interfere with beggars.

To the Rev. E. W. Kissack : I would gladly act on a central committee for the organization of charitable relief if one were established.

To the Chairman : I think that if there was a small cottage hospital in Peel it would be a great benefit, especially in cases of surgical operations. At present cases requiring surgical aid have to be sent to the Hospital in Douglas.

To Mr R. J. Moore: Many of the poor would, possibly, object to compulsory removal to a hospital.

To the Rev. E. W. Kissack: I have seen the beggars selling the meal, which has been given to them in charity at the farm houses, and most likely they drank the money. Some no doubt save the money, but others spend it in a way that is not beneficial to them.

To the Chairman: I have heard of cases of paupers who have saved money and invested it. they have been getting too much relief. A central organisation, which would sift every case, would prevent imposition of that sort. I do not think that illegitimacy is on the increase in Peel.

To Mr R. J. Moore: I believe that the people of Peel are becoming more moral. I believe that the influences brought to bear on them, in the shape of religious meetings, and such like, have a good moral effect upon the people, and that their morals are better than they were some time ago.

To Mr Corbett: They are becoming more moral —more provident; and I think, when the railway is finished and the navvies gone, that Peel will return to its sober state. If begging was put down it would have a good moral effect.

Mr Thomas Cowley Kermode.

Mr Thomas Cowley Kermode, Peel, examined

To Mr R. J. Moore: I know the people of Peel well, havieg lived here all my life.I think that the poor people are all well attended to, I never heard of a case of starvation, and I never heard of a case of distress going unrelieved, in cases af distress a special appeal is made and relief afforded, These appeals are invariably responded to by all classes of people, irrespective of creed. I know the system of begging that is practised here. I have often asked them what they considered was a fair day's relief to receive, and how much they would earn in aday. They have frequently told me that it would be a poor day if they did not earn half-a-crown, besides as much meat as would last them two or three days. Most of them would make no secret of what they got in this way, but used to tell it in a boasting way. They generally sell the meal they receive. Tramps invariably carry a bag or basket, in which to carry meal and scraps which they get at the various houses they call at. They think nothing of making 14s or 15s a week and their "grub," as they describe it. I have made many inquiries into the system of begging, and I think it could be put down if there was a central organization, properly and efficiently worked.

To Mr Corbett: If there was a central organization for the administration of charitable relief, and the law was made to reach them, then the police could be put upon these tramping impostors.

To Mr R. J. Moore: I am visited at my shop regularly once a week by these tramps, to the number of some fifteen or eighteen. It costs me from fifteen to eighteen pence a week to satisfy their demands. I give a penny a week to those I consider the most deserving. Some of them tried on coming fortnightly, and demanding the double allowance, I refused to agree to that. They said that they could not go round on Peel and Castletown in one day, and as they only came once in the two weeks they thought they were entitled to double allowance, (Laaghter.)

To Mr Corbett ; I did not fall in with their proposal; but I would rather give it to them than subject myself to the abuse they very frequently give you if you refuse them relief, Most of them are strangers to Peel, not more than half-a-dozen of them belonging to that town, I am convinced if there was a properly organized system it would have the effect, if efficiently worked, of patting down house-to-house begging. It would enable us to give more assistance to those belonging to the town, and to discourage the tramps who come in from other parts of the Island. A central organi zation would be of no service unless they were put down.

To the Rev. B. P. Clarke: Some of the tramps are from the country districts. Two are from your parish (Marown).

To Mr Corbett: I believe that the few belonging to Peel also receive relief from the church-wardens.

To the Chairman: I believe that a much larger amount would be contributed towards the relief of the poor if there was a central committee, because people would then have confidence that the relief was distributed properly, instead of being given to tramps. as is the case under the present indiscriminate system. I would much prefer giving to a central committee to giving the relief as I do now. We are all much opposed to a compulsory system of rating for the support of the poor,

Rev. John LaMothe Stowell.

The Rev. John LaMothe Stowell, vicar of German, examined.

To Mr R. J. Moore: I have heard your statement as to the charities of the town of Peel and the parish of German, and I confirm that statement in every particular. With regard to the relief of the poor, I think that they are fairly attended to in this district. In addition to the funds distributed by myself and the church wardens, there are certain funds which are applied by myself independently of the wardens—Mrs Woulff's money, and others. I appropriate those moneys in such a way asI consider best for the relief of the poor. I distribute this relief to those whom I consider the really deserving poor.

To the Chairman: I think it would be a very good thing if there was a central organization for the distribution of charitable relief; and I would be quite disposed to work on such a committee.

To Mr R. J. Moore: Such an institution would be doubly valuable if it would have the effect of stopping house to house begging.

To Mr Corbett: It would have the effect of stopping a great deal of demoralization.

To Mr R. J. Moore: Of course, I mean that this central organization should be worked on the voluntary principle. My opinion is that a compulsory rate would produce the evil effect so often referred to, viz., that of drying up the springs of private charity.

To the Chairman: I think that, under the present system, too great a burthen, in regard to the support of the poor, is thrown on a few individuals. I know many persons who bear a disproportionate share of the weight. I think that a central system would prevent that.

To Mr Corbett: I think that another effect of an organized system of relief would be, that it would tend to make a greater number contribute.

Rev. George Smith.

Rev. George Smith., Primitive Methodist minister, Peel, examined :

To Mr R. J, Moore: I think that the views which have been expressed generally reprwesent the feelings and opinions of the people. I think that as regards unity in raising funds, there would be a general effort made on the part of the people to raise funds if there was a central organization established for the purpose of raising funds for therelief of the poor, Whenever there has been a special effort made, it has been generally responded to. That has been invariably the case since I came to reside here. There has always been a cheerful disposition on the part of the people to afford help, the Church people, Wesleyans, and Primitives, all combining in the good object.

To the Rev. E. W. Kissack : I would gladly act on a central committee, having for its object the organization of a better system for the relief of the poor.

To the Chairman : I am superntendent of the Primitive Methodist Circuit in this town. I think that there is a decided room for improvement in the way of provision for medical assistance for the poor. When I was at Northwich there was a very nice plan there under which medical assistance was afforded to the poor; but whether it would answer here I cannot say. There they had a Medical Hall and a place for the supply of drugs. The poor people paid the small sum of 2d a week, and for that, in case of accident or sickness, they were supplied with medical attendance and with medicine. Doctors attended in rotation at the Medical Hall, and in slight cases the patients went there. In difficult cases the doctors attended on them at their homes, and they had nothing more to pay.

To Mr Corbett : The doctors who attended were properly qualified men.

To Mr R. J. Moore: The local medical men there, in the management and working of the institution I refer to, agreed very well; and I do not know why they should not agree here also. I do not think that in matters affecting the welfare of the poor, they should be disunited.

To the Chairman: I have had some experience of the poor-law system in England, and I think that the poor are just as well treated here as they are there. There are no doubt many things to be said in commendation of the compulsory principle, and not afew against It I vave often had applications made to me by poor persons for relief, and I have used my influence to obtain relief for them when I have not had means to afford them relief myself, As regards the Island, however, I have had no particular experience in regard to the relief of the poor. I go about the town and district a good deal, My district extends about five miles ; and I have seen a good many cases of poor persons who looked aa if they wanted medical relief, I have had no means of relieving them, and did not know how to obtain medical relief for them,

To the Rev. B. P. Clarke: I have often heard complaints of the medical attendance in this district—sometimes complaints as to the heavy charges of the medical men, and at other times, as to the difficulty experienced in getting medical advice; and I have heard poor people state that they have refrained from sending for a medical man because they could not afford to pay him, I would prefer not giving the particulars of any case I have heard.

To the Rev. G. Paton: No doubt plenty of people complain for very slight reason ; but the cases I refer to have been those of poor labouring people—labouring men with large families, not receiving relief from any source, but still very much pressed in their circumstances.

To Mr Corbett : There have been complaints of cases not being properly attended to. I think that a medical hall, somewhat similar to that I have described as existing at Northwich, would be a great boon to the poor. The poor themselves subscribe to that institution. They were not paupers, I believe that in every case, except confinements, they had medicine and attendance. I should think that it would be a great blessing to have here an institution in the shape of a small cottage hospital ; but instead of having a separate dispensary, there might he orders given for medicines on the druggists in the town. It would also be a very good thing to have an arrangement with a medical man to attend on the sick poor—orders on him to attend to sick cases to be obtained from some authority, such as a central relief committee,

Rev. Alfred Levell.

The Rev. Alfred Levett, Wesleyan minister, Peel, examined.

To the Chairman : I have heard all the evidence given before the Commission to-day, and with most of it I agree. My opinions on the subject are based on a two years' experience here, and my belief is that the poor of the town are fairly provided for. Their condition will, I think, compare favourably with what I have seen of the poor in England. As Wesleyans we take our share in various ways in assisting in the relief of the poor. In Peel there is considerable relief given at house-doors to poor persons who may be regarded as pensioners. Special cases of distress are met by special appeals. If the necessity arises, there is not much difficulty in raising funds. I believe that the Wesleyan people would be quite ready to unite with a central committee for the organization of the relief of the poor, and to assist in supplementing the funds, There is a general impression, and it is my own too, that if the whole system of the relief of the poor were put into the hands of one local committee, elected on a liberal basis, ample means would be either provided or forthcoming. Such an organization seems to me to be a desideratum in the town.

To the Rev. G. Paton: I do not think that religious differences would form any difficulty in the matter.

To Mr Corbett : I think that all denominations would join in such a Movement. Moreover, under such a system cases would be better investigated, and there would be a fairer distribution,

To the Chairman: My experience has not led me to realize the necessity of a cottage hospital for the poor in Peel and neighbourhood.

To Mr Corbett: My experience amongst the Poor is principally limited to my own people. I do not go much amongst the general poor, I would generally bear out the statements of the Rev. Mr Smith with regard to medical attendance on the poor. I believe that the comparatively poor have not, in some cases, that amount of medical car and advice which is desirable ; but I have not met with a single case of neglected want.

To the Chairman: Nor of neglected relief, I do not think that 4s a week for the support of an individual is sufficient, and 5s would be little enough, I think

'To Mr Corbett: In all Wesleyan Chapels there are collections sacramental and other collections for the poor, The money received in this way is chiefly distributed to members of our society and to those whe attend our own chapel. We have only one here in Peel, but in my circuit there are eleven villages with Wesleyan Chapels and societies.

To the Chairman: It is our custom to give the proceeds of our sacramental collections to the poor after paying expenses.

To Mr Corbett: The amount of our sacramental collections and thanksgiving services last year would be about £7, That sum would be for the poor, subject to the deduction for sacramental expenses. £6 would be about the amount distributed in relief from our town chapel.

To the Chairman: The members of my connection are subscribers to the town charities, besides giving liberally to beggars at their own doors.

To Mr Corbett : I think that, under the present system, this giving of relief at the doors is almost a necessity, As there is no proper provision for the relief of the poor, we do not feel at liberty to refuse them, I believe that a number of these house to house beggars are strangers to the town, but, as there is no legal provision for the poor here, we do not feel justified in refusing to give them relief, as we would in England where there is a compulsory rate for their rellef, I agree with you, looking at it in that way, that, in order to justify us in refusing relief to the house-to-house beggars, the system of central committees must be carried out throughout the whole Island, to make it complete. I think that, with the existing feeling in this Island, the poor will be better cared for with the voluntary system, than under a compulsory system. So long as the people give liberally, as they do now, there is no necessity for a compulsory system.

To the Chairman: I think, with regard to the poor themselves, that they would prefer the relief under the present voluntary system.

To Mr Corbett : I know that there is a strong feeling against a compulsory rate; and I think that, while that feeling exists, it would be better to continue the voluntary system of relief, administered by a central relieving committee in every district. Much—very much—of the success of this system would depeud upon the organization.

Tenth Day, FRIDAY, November 22, 1878,

PEEL ( Continued),

the Commission present were— S. Harris, Esq ;High Bailiff of Douglas, chairman U. Corbett Esq., , R. J. Moore, Esq., the Rev. B, P. Clarke, the Rev. E. W. Kissack, and the Rev, George Paton

Mr R. J. Moore I wish to say a word or two of explanation with reference to certain portions of my evidence given yesterday with regard to Coopers Mill. I am afraid that some of the observations I made in reference to that affair might be calculated to raise an impression in the pablic mind, and particularly amongst outsiders, that I was throwing a certain amount of censure on those who were io office as churchwardens at the time.

The Chairman: Nothing of the sort could be inferred from what was stated, I am quite sure.

Mr Corbett: Such an impression was not created in the minds of the Commission by anything that you stated. It was rather the reverse, I think What you stated showed that the church wardens, all through, had endeavoured to do the best they could ander very difficult circumstances.

Mr R. J. Moore: So far from wishing to throw any blame on the wardens I desired it to go forth that they acted strictly in accordance with what they considered was right. I may state that I have been in the habit of attending the vestry meetings for the last 40 years, consecutively, and it that, with one exception (when prevented by illness), I have always taken an active part in all matters connected with the church. If, therefore, there is any one to blame, I am quite ready to participate with the vicar and wardens in that blame. At all events, I may state that the wardens for the time being were some of the most respectable men that could be selected, and it is only fair that their names should go forth. The wardens for the town were the late Mr Henry Graves and Mr Evan Quirk. For the parish—the late Mr John Gell, of Kenna (who was the same time Trustee of the mill property), and Messrs Evan Gell, of Ballalough ; John Stevenson Moore, of Lhergyaaco; and William Christian, of Lambfell, who are still living. They were the wardens in office at the time, and all their acts regarding the mill were most completely confirmed at the vestry meetings, In addition to that, I may state that this morning I have learned, for the first time, that two of the wardens, on the 7th May, 1873, did make a deposit in the Bank of Mona towards the acumulated fund for paying off the mortgage on the mill; the amount deposited was £39. and there is a note in the deposit book of the Bank of Mona to the effect that this money was not to be disturbed or withdrawn, until it amounted to the sum which was required, viz., £364 5s 9d, to pay off the mortgage. With the interest which has been accruing since the deposit, it now amounts to £45 14s 11d, and it is standing to the credit of the accumulated fund ot this moment. I think it is only right that my evidence should be supplemented by the record of this fact. This money was deposited in the Bank of Mona by Mr Cesar Corris and Mr Evan Quirk, the latter being one of the wardens at the time the original arrangement was made. I think it also right to mention that all these bequests for the poor of the parish of German, have been inscribed on tablets in the church, recording the benefactions and the names of the benefactors. Our object in doing this has been to provide not only a reminder to the living, but also a record of the past. Every thing has been made as public as possible.

The Chairman: I am sure the members of the Commission had no thought that anything was kept back.

Mr Corbett: I quite understood Mr Moore to say, yesterday, that no blame was attributable to any one in regard to what had been done in the matter of Cooper's Mill, and that he was only stating facts.

Mr R. J. Moore: I was rather afraid that there might be some misunderstanding, and therefore, I was desirous of making this explanation.

Dr. Henry Higgins.

Dr. Henry Higgins, Peel, examined.

To the Chairman: My practice extends over the town of Peel and the parishes of German, Patrick, Michael, and Ballaugh. In my return to the questions sent out by the Commission, I show that the population of those places is as follows :—Peel, 3,496; German, 1,762; Patrick, 2,888 ; Michael, 1,231; and Ballaugh, 1,077. In none of these districts is there any system of medical attendance for the poor ; but the members of benefit societies are each entitled to medical attendance, for which they each subscribe.

With respect to the number of cases of infectious disease during the last three years, it is impossible to say how many there have been, as no record has been kept except of the cases of smallpox, of which there were nine, within twelve months. There is no cottage hospital or other building in which such cases can be treated ; neither is there any alms-house, house of industry, nor other building available for the reception of poor persons. I never heard of the law relating to the support of the poor by their relatives being enforced in this district. I was one of those who were present at the consultation of the medical gentlemen of the Island with reference to the medical attendance during the recent ontbreak of smallpox. I consider that the absence of any organized system of medical attendance on the poor in this town and district is a great deficiency. I do not think that there is any necessity for dispensaries in the country districts. In my opinion, the requirements of all may be met by establishing a small cottage hospital in Peel itself. I think that a hospital to accommodate six patients, with separate wards for each sex, would be sufficient for the wants of Peel and the surrounding district I do not think that gratuitous medical ald could be invariably relied upon on account of the great distances to be travelled, The poor from the country should have the benefit of medical assistance from the hospital on the production of an order from some recognised authority-say the vicar and wardens. I think that a resident nurse to attend to sick poor persons is absolutely indispensable in Peel, In fact, there should be two nurses,one to reside in the hospital, and another available to go out when necessary. The medical man who attended to the hospital should go out to visit poor patients in the country districts. He would not dispense the medicines, as he would not reside at the hospital, but he should have stated times at which he would see outdoor patients at the institution. It would not, I think, be necessary to have a dispen sary attached to the hospital, because a contract could be made with the local druggists to make up the prescriptions at a minimum cost. By that means the druggists'shops would act as dispensaries. The public vaccinators of the various districts might act as medical attendants of the small cottage hospitals, but I do not see how the times at which they perform the public vaccinations could be made to fit in with their attendance on the sick poor. The public vaccinations are held periodically at fixed periods—say every two or three months. We go one week to vaccinate and another to certify. It would be hardly worth while fixing the visits to the sick then, or to require the poor to visit the medical men at the vaccination stations, because the sick persons most desirous of seeing the medieal man would require to be visited at their houses. It would be just as easy for the sick person to send a message to the medical man in the town. The medical man's remuneration might depend either upon the distance he had to travel, or he might undertake the district upon contract. My time is not now fully taken up at the times fixed for public vaccinations. I go to each station once every two months, and give half-an-hour to each station. Not being fully occupied for the whole time, I might give advice to any poor persons who came to the vaccination stations to see me.

To Mr Corbett : The mere time for attendance for vaccination would not suffice, but we might see any patients who might come to us there.

To the Chairman : There are not many cases of vaccination now. I go as far north as Ballaugh. The last time I was there I had six cases of vaccination, and at Michael I had five. Some of those I then vaccinated were beyond the age. I go to those parishes every two months. '

To Mr Corbett: I would affiliate the whole of the High-Bailiff of Peel's district to the hospital at Peel. The parishes of German, Patrick Michael, and Ballaugh belong to the district of the High-Bailiff of Peel. Ballaugh and Michael are a good distance off. Ballaugh is nearer to Ramsey than it is to Peel; and it is, therefore a question whether that parish should be affiliated to Peel or to Ramsey. I have it in my vaccination district. I think that a cottage hospital with say six beds might be sufficient : but it would, I agree cost very little more to have one for eight beds. A hospital with that accommodation would be amply sufficient for the wants of Peel and the parishes There should be a resident nurse, whose services should be available for the sick poor, That, I think, would be well spent money, and would be very useful. The only question is whether one trained nurse would be sufficient to attend to both indoor and outdoor work.

To the Chairman: There is more overcrowding in the country than in the town.

To the Rev. B Clarke: There were only nine cases of smallpox in Peel, at the recent outbreak of that disease. We practised complete isolation. I certainly do believe in isolation in cases of amallpox I see no reason whatever why smallpox should spread . Isolation and vaccination will stamp it out.

With regard to the origin of the smallpox outbreak here I may say that the first case came from Douglas, the person going to a country house in which were two children who were unvaccinated. The father had had smallpox and the mother had been vaccinated 45 years previously. The two unvaccinated children took the smallpox and one died. The mother took it, and passed safely through the ordeal, having been vaccinated 45 years previously; and the father escaped, he having already had smallpox. In a house close by, a father, mother, and two children resided. One of the children I had vaccinated at Foxdale, and the other was unvaccinated. The latter took smallpox and died. The other child, who had been playing about the house, and in the same room with the dead child, escaped. At Ballacraine the disease appeared in a house. I re-vaccinated all the others in the house, and not one of the others took the disease. At a house in the parish of German the same thing occurred. A lad who had not been vaccinated, took the disease ; but all the others escaped, having been vaccinated. There was no spread of the disease in vaccinated persons. Vaccination and isolation prevented the spread of the disease.

To the Chairman: All the expenses in connection with the epidemic were paid by the Government. I have had a good deal of scarlatina, and several cases of typhoid fever in my district.

To Mr Corbett : I do not think it would he necessary to have a lying-in ward attached to the hospital if one was provided in Peel. As a rule, the labouring classes here are comfortable, and midwifery cases get on very nicely. I have attended about 3,000 cases of midwifery during my practice, and out of all that number I have only had one case of fatal illness that might be attributed to zymotic causes. No doubt there are cases of confinement in which the family and children occupy the same room. There would, perhaps, be only two beds—one bed for the woman, and perhaps three or four children in the other bed. In fact, the lying-in room would be occupied by other children, and by the family generally. In some cases the children would be adults. During the process they would go out, but on other occasions, and during recovery, they would occupy the same room.

To Mr R. J. Moore : I have had the number of cases of midwifery I have mentioned in 20 years. I have no idea what the annual cost would he of such an institution as the hospital I have described as being necessary for Peel; but I do not think it would be very large. I have not thought of the expense, but only of the necessity that exists for such an institution, I scarcely care to give even an approximate opinion of what the expense would be, but I should say it would be at least £200 a year. There are various ways in which I think the money could be raised. For instance, by subscriptions. I have no doubt that the general public would gladly increase their general voluntary subscriptions, to help forward and support such a valuable institution.

To Mr Corbett: We have a great evil existing here in the shape of house to house begging. It is an intolerable nuisance, because those who give the money do not know, under the present system whether those who receive it are deserving of charitable relief, or whether they make proper use of the money which they get. In Peel a great number of beggars go round from door to door, and money is as a rule given to them indiscriminately, without any effort being made to inquire into the character or deservedness of the recipients. Many of those whom this money ts given to are afterwards to be found lying drunk on the road Many of them - one half of them at least have no claim whatever on the charity of the people of Peel. I think that if the money which is now given indiseriminately were given in the form of an annual amount to some responsible representative conmiitee,and distributed by them, this system of house to house begging might be abolished, Let each householder calculate the amount he gives to these tramps at the doors, and give that sum to a central committee, and I think you would find that there would be sufficient not only for the relief of the poor, but also for medi cal attendance and for all the general require ments. I am certain that the amount which is to a large extent wasted in Peel in indiscriminate charity, would be sufficient for all purposes if properly applied. If it is not sufficient we might take a dip into the Insular revenue for assistance. If a portion of the Insular revenue could be ap propriated for the smallpox e sidemic, I do not sev why it should not also be taken for the purposes I have indicated. There is another mode of raising the money which I would rather uot refer to, as it is extremely unpopular. I mean a compulsory rate. I would not at all recommend that plan of raising the money unless all other plans failed ; and I would givthe other systems a trial first.

To Mc R. J. Moore: First I would recommend the purely voluntary system, and next the Insular revenue in aid of the voluntary system; and if both these plans failed, then a compulsory rate would have to he resorted to. I feel confident that the money now given in Peel would meet all requirements if judiciously and economically expended.

To Mr Corbett: I may safely say, from my experience across the water, that the amount given under the present voluntary system in this Island is quite equal to the amount given in England under the system of compulsory taxation. It does not appear much when given from week to week, as it is under the present system ; but I think that if they calculated it they would find that the voluntary system costs them more than a compulsory rate. I regard the voluntary system as the more expensive process, but the people here do not see it. They waste in indiscriminate charity more than they would pay as a compulsory rate, and the money is frequently given to worthless vagabonds, Another objection to the present system is that many do not give who ought to do so.

To Mr R. J. Moore: It would perhaps require some effort to raise £200 a year for a hospital.

To Mr Corbett: But it would not require any very considerable additional effort, as the people would no doubt give to that object instead of giving to the worthless characters who now get their money.

To the Rev, G, Paton I think that after a while the poor peaple would go to the hospital willingly enough. To show the necessity of such an institution here I would mention the case of poor fellow in the country here who was nearly kicked to death by a fellow servant I was sent for by his master, and I attended to him for a long time I had to visit him for five weeks before I succeeded in bringing him to a state of consciousness, and then he had to be taken home to his own place, where there was no proper convenience for such a case, I could tell you of many other cases which should have been sent to a hospital, There was one case of a lad who had his foot smashed; and another of a woman who had both her arms broken; and in both these cases there was great distress owing to the want of a proper place to which to send them.

To the Rev. G. Paton: If there was a hospital in Peel, persons suffering in such a way as the poor people I have described would be very glad to go to it; but they object to go to Douglas, on account of the distance.

To the Rev. B. P. Clarke: I generally attend accidents at Foxdale at the expense of the Mining Company.

To the Rev. G. Paton: I am medical officer for 11 benefit societies. The total number of members will be about 1,700. I am bound to attend them whenever they are sick. The average of sickness amongst them is not great. There are many old men amongst them who are pensioners.

To the Chairman: I believe that the benefits arising from having hospital accommodation would amply repay the expenditure. The wives and children of the 1,700 members of the benefit clubs whom I attend have no claim on me for medical attendance.

To Mr Corbett: I do not think that the benefit societies would contribute towards the cost of a hospital, as they pay for medical assistance already. The Foxdale miners are, as a rule, very well off, and cases of accident amongst them are treated at their own homes.

To Mr R J. Moore: In case of an outbreak of an epidemic, the hospital could not always be used— at all events, if it was otherwise occupied at the time with other cases. Its great value would be in cases of accident and other cases.

To Mr Corbett: The hospital would be a great boon, as it would be a place to which we could remove infectious cases if there was no other case in the institution at the time. In England the attendance on the poor is done by contract, according to the population and distance. The population of my district is about 11,000. If Ballaugh were taken off, that would wake it about 1,000 less,

Dr John Reynolds

Dr. John Reynolds, of Peel, examined

To the Chairman: I have heard the evidence given by Dr, Higgins, and I fully coincide with him in all he has said

To Mr R. J. Moore; The expense af such a hospital as has been suggested by Dr, Higgins, and the cost of medical attendance on the poor, would depend upon the contracta which were made, In England the poor in each district are attended on by contract, The salaries given are as low as £5 for a district, while in some places they run up to £700 or £800 a year,

To Mr Corbett ; As a matter of fact, the medical men sometimes accept the offices at auch salaries as would not pay them if they did their duty properly. They are often content to accept the position at low salaries to prevent others getting it. I believe the medical men of the Island, believing that it would be for the benefit of the poor, would be content to work it cheaply. I judge this from what they charge for attending on members of the clubs, which, so far as medical attendance is concerned, are worked very cheaply. The real annual permanent standing expense of such a hospital would only be that of the nurse, but she would also act as housekeeper. I think that if the nurse was a trained midwife, she would be kept very well occupied in Peel in attending midwifery cases as well as the hospital.

To the Chairman: A properly trained nurse could be had for from £30 to £35 a year

To Mr R. J. Moore ; There would also be the various incidental expenses always attending the management of hospitals; but I think that £200 a year is very much over the mark of what the annual expenses of such an institution would be,

To Mr Corbett: I think that such a hospital as has been sketched out by Dr, Higgins is a real want in the Peal district, but I do not know whether the people could be induced to go into it after it was provided. I have no doubt that at first they would refuse to go in, but afterwards, when they came to find out its value, and got over their prejudices, they would be willing enough to take advantage of it.

To Mr R. J. Moore: There might be great disinclination to go into the hospital for considerable time, but they would get over that.

To Mr Corbett: I cannot say for a fact that if such a hospital was established, they would not go into it, because there has never been a hospital here, and, therefore, it has never been tried. I believe, however, that they object to go into the Donglas Hospital except in serious cases In serious cases here, also, they would be willing enough to go in.

Mr Robert Corrin.

Mr Robert Corrin, of Peel, examined.

To Mr Corbett : The voluntary system is working remarkably well in Peel. All classes and denominations unite in it, and I believe that the poor are better served than they would be under a compulsory system of poor relief. There are very few cases of real destitution, and, as a rule, the poor are more than fairly relieved. Possibly, a few who are undeserving get relief under the present indiscriminate system of giving charity, and pro bably it would be better if there was a central committee for the distribution of charitable relief. That undeserving cases get relieved, is no doubt a misfortune for those who receive as well as those who give; and I, for one, would be very well pleased to see a central organization established here. No doubt that at my own house a good deal is given away to tramping beggars, but I cannot say that I ever begrudged the odd pennies that are thus given. It is very likely, as you say, that some of this money may be illspent, but I think not much of it. I think that, as a rule, the Manx poor are very provident. No doubt under the present system undeserving cases are frequently relieved, but I think that is the exception, and not the rule. We give about £20 a year away at our door, and I hope that it is a benefit to those who receive it. If I thought otherwise, I would not give it. Perhaps some few of those who receive the money may be undeserving. A voluntary organization might be established which might devise a means of distributing this money better,

To the Rev. G. Paton: I have been a warden of this parish, and I never heard a complaint against our system of distributing relief, We distribute the money amongst the poor in fair proportion, without regard to creed or nationality.

To the Rev. E. W. Kissack: The system of distributing relief by means of the vicar and wardens has worked very well, so far as I know.

To the Chairman: It does not at all follow that the churchwardens of the parish must be Churchmen. They may belong to anysect. Very frequently they are Wesleyan Methodists.

To the Rev. B. P. Clarke: The custom is to elect them at the annual vestry meeting irrespective of creed.

To the Chairman: I think that the present system, with a central organization, would work

To the Rev. B. P. Clarke: I can scarcely form an opinion as to the necessity of a small hospital in Peel and district; but, so far as I know, I do not think it is wanted. It would involve a considerable amount of expenditure; and the question is, if there was such an institution, would the poor go into it? There might be cases of accident occasionally, such as Dr Higgins was referring to, which could be better treated in a hospital than elsewhere. There might be one or two such cases in the course of a year, but not more.

To the Rev. E. W. Kissack: I firmly believe that if a hospital was provided, the poor people would not be willing to go into it. There might be cases of fractured limbs, and other accideuts, in which it would be a benefit.

To Mr Corbett: Such an institution might be of benefit in cases of infectious disease, but they were not frequent, Considering the unwillingness of the Manx poor people to go into a hospital, I think it would be unwise to rush into the unknown expense which such an institution would involve. Considering the fact that the bulk of the male population are members of benefit societies, and as such, have medical attendance provided for them, I do not think that hospital is wanted, nor is there any great necessity for making proviston for medical relief, I should like to make a few remarks with regard to the condition of the house of the fishing population of Peel,I know the fishing population of nearly the whole of Ireland, Scotland, and England ; and I assure you that if you were to make it your business to visit the houses of the fishing population there, you would declare in favour of the houses in Peel. With reference to cleanliness, the houses in Peel would compare immeasurably with those of the fishing population in any part of the kingdom. The Peel fishermen are, as a rule, a thriving set of men.

To the Rev E, W. Kissnck: Pauperism is by no means on the increase here, It may be, from the increased facilities for education, that the people are rising to a higher standard of intelligence, and to a higher moral standard, I only note the fact that there is less pauperism, and less drunkenness.

To Mr R. J. Moore: There may he some little overcrowding in the town; but it is very little indeed.

To the Chairman ; I do not dispute the fact that there may be one or two wretched lodging- houses in the town.

GERMAN

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