Thanks Sue, I had seen that Edward was listed as born in England but being as he lied about his age on his marriage certificate, said he was 32 which would have made his birth 1816, when it seems he was actually 36 born in 1812, a little old for Mary ! I can't find anything before the wedding in 1848 for Edward or Patrick. Guess I'll just have to keep searching, I print everything I find otherwise I forget where I've been ! I ordered the Hinton Bird book from Amazon. Thanks for that tip. Thanks again, Pat