Let’s start with the three Johns, because they are the nub of the argument. Each one is associated with names of parents and date of birth. Each Mrs. John is associated with the death of her husband. We can’t add to any particular John the little package of wife plus death (or just death) until we are sure that we are making the right association, and that is the argument that I am trying to elicit from you.

So we start with John one, the son of Robert L and Jane Kneen. Under him you state that he died in 1783 aged 34. That’s not an argument; it’s a statement. The argument presumably is that it must have been John one that died in 1783 because he is the only one that fits the age 34. That supports my conjecture that it is this 1783 decedent that is driving this whole shift.

You then move on to John two. My John two was the son of John Crow Creen (m to Margaret Kelvie and d 1769). You say that John Looney son of Daniel Looney and Isabel Cashen was not born until 14th January 1770. True. That particular John was my John three. I’m not getting an argument out of that. You then say that John Looney junior signed his father’s will in 1769. OK. That would be John two.

You then move on to John three, who you say was the son of John Looney and Margaret Hutchin. That particular John is not involved in the Roper shift because both you and Constance agree that the son of Margaret Hutchin was still alive in 1802. No, he wasn’t my John three. The 1802 deed does not sway the argument one way or the other, for John snr. was the husband of Margaret Hutchin and they were the parents of John jr., we are all agreed. I have points to raise about the descendants of John L and Margaret H, arising out of the end of your posting under reply and the end of the next one, at 4:31 am, but will hold them over until we have finished with John one, two and three.

I’ll end by setting out the three Johns and their varying destinies according to CKR and yourself, if I have understood you aright.

One. The son of Robert L and Jane Kneen, b ca 1749. CKR says he married Margaret Hutchin and d 1804. You say he d 1783.

Two. The son of John L and Margaret Kelvie, b 1745, say. CKR says he married Isabel Camaish and d 1835. You say he married Margaret Hutchin and d 1804.

Three. The son of Daniel L and Isabel Cashen, b 1770. CKR has no destiny for him. You say he married Isabel Camaish and d 1835.